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vova_modelist ([personal profile] vova_modelist) wrote2015-03-19 11:10 am

Мирные крейсера

В комментариях к одному из предыдущих постов развязалась интересная дискуссия про американские крейсера типа Денвер. Мое мнение на тему этих кораблей скорее отрицательное чем положительное, но что-бы продолжить дискуссию хотел повесить интересную статью из Engineering, Volume 69 за 1900ый год в которой много интересной информации на тему этих кораблей.

Вынесу несколько моментов почерпнутых из статьи из комментариев:

Цены на крейсера типа Denver:
USS Galveston - $1027000
USS Chattanooga - $1039000
USS Cleveland - $1041000
USS Tacoma - $1041000
USS Denver - $1080000

Цены на канонерки которые выполняли их роль раньше
USS Machias (1777т)- $318,500
USS Concord (1700т) - $490,000
USS Petrel (892т) - $247,000
USS Yorktown (1710т) - $455,000

И еще одно замечание из статьи:
Интересно что при этом на конкурс были выставлены проекты где за ту-же цену предлагалась скорость в 18 и даже 19 узлов. Например проект фирмы Trigg & Co за $1041000 обещал 18 узлов а за 1079000 19 узлов, а проект Fore River Company за $1100000 обещал 18.5 узлов. Но как пишут в статье американские адмиралы не хотели показушные корабли способные достигнуть более высокой скорости на небольшое время, а корабли способные держать полный ход долговремено.

Фото для затравки - USS Denver в сухом доке в Бостоне, 1928ой год



1. Обзорная статья про новые американские бронепалубные крейсера типа Денвер

2. Дополнительная статья, общий вид и разрез корпуса

3. Окончание предыдущей статьи (маленький кусочек в первой колонке)

4. Чертеж крейсера

5. Чертеж подкреплений под машины крейсера

6. Продолжение чертежа

7. Чертеж машин и котлов

8. Продолжение

9. И паровые машины

10. Ну в дополнение статья про эти крейсера из Marine Review за 1899ой год

11.

[identity profile] alex-bolea-md.livejournal.com 2015-03-19 06:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Спасибо!

[identity profile] vova-modelist.livejournal.com 2015-03-19 08:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Всегда пожалуйста :).

[identity profile] an508508.livejournal.com 2015-03-19 07:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Спасибо! Отличная статья!

[identity profile] vova-modelist.livejournal.com 2015-03-19 08:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Мне тоже статья понравилась. В Engineering публиковали отличные материалы.

[identity profile] von-lans.livejournal.com 2015-03-19 07:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Уже почти статья готова)))

[identity profile] vova-modelist.livejournal.com 2015-03-19 08:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Это точно, осталось только добавить историю службы :).

[identity profile] arlan (from livejournal.com) 2015-03-19 09:11 pm (UTC)(link)
да, история службы была бы весьма познавательной :)

[identity profile] arlan (from livejournal.com) 2015-03-19 10:37 pm (UTC)(link)
о, замечательно! завтра с удовольствием почитаю.
Спасибо! :)

[identity profile] ezyk091978.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 03:33 am (UTC)(link)
Интересно предки писали. Сейчас даже не могу представить материал такого уровня о какой-нибудь АПЛ.

[identity profile] vova-modelist.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 06:47 am (UTC)(link)
Каждый раз на эту тему думаю - в те годы в открытой печати писали такое что сейчас держат под десятью замками.

[identity profile] ezyk091978.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 04:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Подозреваю, что дело было в рекламе завода-строителя. К двадцатым годам, года объемы экспортного кораблестроения здорово уменьшились, так подробно писали мало.

[identity profile] vova-modelist.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 05:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Мне кажется что все были интереснее - точка изменения происходит где то в 1906-08ом году, то есть с началом дредноутной гонки. Такое впечатление что после того как все вдруг оказались на одной точке старта, все страны вдруг поняли что секретить информацию - выгодно. По этому после 1908го года публиковали подробного рода материалы только по вспомогательным и экспортным кораблям. По кораблям 1-2го класса основных флотов подобные статьи перестали публиковать. А после ПМВ вообще перешли на то что мы по сей день видим - рекламно обтекаемые статьи практически без подробностей.

[identity profile] ezyk091978.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 06:19 pm (UTC)(link)
Думаю, на те годы пришелся рубеж, когда судостроение стало по-настоящему наукоёмким. Подробные публикации начали здорово экономить соперникам время и деньги.

[identity profile] vova-modelist.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 06:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Я думаю что там еще и психологический момент был - до дредноута англичане на столько всех превосходили что строй не строй, секреть не секреть, а придет куча Маджестиков и будет все равно :). А тут вдруг у всех появилась возможность играть а англичанами на равных, вот и засуетились :).

[identity profile] ezyk091978.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 06:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Да, было такое. Ругали Дредноут, что он пустил на смарку усилия последних двадцати лет.

[identity profile] l-69-l.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 04:33 am (UTC)(link)
Не владеющие заморским наречием рвут волосья... ))

[identity profile] vova-modelist.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 06:45 am (UTC)(link)
К сожалению с этим помочь никак не могу - терпеть не могу переводить тексты :).

[identity profile] l-69-l.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 07:13 am (UTC)(link)
*пошёл искать словарь, и лишнюю неделю времени*
:))

[identity profile] vova-modelist.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 07:56 am (UTC)(link)
Ну вот текст статьи из со страницы 1, можете попробовать его перевести автоматически:

THE UNITED STATES CRUISERS OF THE "DENVER" CLASS.

In our issue of January 12 latt wo published illustrations of the United States protected cruiBer Denver. This vessel is one of a class of six that were provided for in the Naval Appropriation Bill for the fiscal year ending June 30 next. The vessels were first known as protected cruisers 14 to 19, but have since been named the Denver, Des Moines, Chattanooga, Galveston, Tacoma, and Cleveland. The tenders for them have been recently opened, but this feature we will refer to later. On pages 394 and 395 we complete the series of illustrations of the machinery for these ships, which we commenced on the two-pago plate of our issue of January 12, on which, together with engravings on page SO of the same issue, we gave engravings of the general arrangement of the vessel. Figs. 6 to 12, of our two-page plate, January 26, are views of the fourcylinder triple expansion engines; Figs. 13 and 14, of our two-page plate of February 16, and Figs. 15 and 16 on page 218, are views of the general arrangement of engines and boilers; and on pages 320 and 321 are illustrations of the engine framing.

The vessels are, of course, to be twin-screw, the propelling engines being right and left-handed. As will be gathered from our illustrations already published, they are of the inverted, direct-aoting, fourcrank, triple expansion type. There is one piston valve for the high-pressure cylinder, and two for each intermediate-pressure cylinder, and one flat slide valve for each low-pressure cylinder. The arrangement is well shown in our two-page plate of January 26. The engines will be placed in separate compartments. In the May issue of last year of the "Journal of the American Society of Naval Engineers," particulars were given of the machinery of these vessels as designed, but in the August isBue of the Proceedings of the same Society it was stated tint several changes had been made in the dimensions. According to the latest advices, the following are the settled elements of the machinery design:
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The sequence of cranks in turning centres is in order as follows: High-pressure, intermediate-pressure, forward low-pressure, and after low-pressure. The order of the cylinders is forward low-pressure, high-pressure, intermediate-pressure, and after lowpressure. The collective indicated horse-power of the propelling and circulating pump engines was originally designed to be 4500, with the main engine making about 172 revolutions per minute at the steam pressure named: viz., 250 lb. at the engine. In this respect the prospective performance has, we believe, not been changed, although there has been a trifling alteration in the diameter of the intermediate-pressure cylinder. The disposition and arrangement of machinery is shown in the longitudinal section, Fig. 13, in the plan, Fig. 11, and in the cross-sections, Figs. 15 and 16. In general design it will be seen by Figs. 6, 7, and 8 (see two-page plate in our issue of January 26) that the framing is of the forged-steel column type at front and back, on the principle introduced in torpedo-boat work, and which has been often adopted with so much success for the engines of vessels, such as these, of larger size. Separate drawings of the framing are given on pages 320 and 321 ante. The engine bedplate is of cast steel. The crankshaft for each engine is forged in two pieces, the shaft for the forward lowpressure, and the high-pressure cylinder, forms one piece, whilst that for the intermediate-pressure cylinder and the after low-pressure cylinder are formed of another piece. All crank, thrust, and propeller shafts are hollow. The shafts, piston-rods, connecting-rods, valve-rods, eccentric-rods, and working parts generally are of forged nickel steel. There is in the design a single-acting air pump worked from the crosshead of the forward low-pressure cylinder, the position of which is shown in Figs. 7 and 9, of our issue of January 26, whilst in Figs. 39 to 50, on page 395, the construction and details are illustrated.

[identity profile] vova-modelist.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 07:56 am (UTC)(link)
There will be one separate cylindrical main condenser to each set of engines, placed in the wings of the engine-room, as usual with an arrangement of machinery of this nature. The total cooling surface of each, as designed, is about 3000 ft., or 6000 ft. in all. Illustrations of the condensers are given in Figs. 25 to 37 on page 394. Each main condenser will have one centrifugal circulating pump. There will be two auxiliary condensers, each with a cooling surface of about 450 ft., and these condensers will

have combined air and circulating pumps. The auxi liary condensers are of the cylindrical type and are placed athwartships against the after engine-room bulkhead. The propellers are of bronze and are right and left-handed, turning from the ship.

According to the original design, it was specified that the boilers should be six in number and of the water-tube type, giving steam for an aggregate of 4700 indicated horse-power. The total grate surface was at least to be 300 square feet, and the total heating surface about 13,200 square feet. The boilers were to l>9 in two compartments with fire-rooms athwartships, and there were to be two smoke pipes for all the six boilers. "The forced-draught system," it is stated in the proposals, "will consist of three boilers discharging into airtight fire - rooms. The air for combustion will be heated by the hot gases circulating among or through tubes arraDged in the uptakes or in tin upper part of the boiler casing, and will be conveyed through ducts fitted with dampers to closed ashpits." The position of the blowers is shown in Figs. 13 and 14 (see two-page plate of our issue of February 16). In addition, the following engines are to be supplied and worked by steam, viz.: Steering engine, capstan engine, four deck winches, two ash hoists from each fire- room, dense air machine with capacity of 1 ton of ice per day, engine for machine tools, and evaporating and distilling plant in two units, each having a capacity of 4000 gallons per day. The following auxiliary machinery is to be electrically operated: Blowers for hull ventilation, and two wincheB for hoisting ammunition.

As stated, we have already published particulars of the hulls and general design* of these vessels, but the main elements according to the lateBt advices may be here added:

Length on water line 292 ft.

Beam at ,, 44 ,,

Trial displacement 3200 tons

Greatest draught, full load 16 ft. 11 in.

Total bunker capacity, not less than 700 tons

Coal on trial 470 „

Feed-water, trial 40 ,,

Speed on trial, at least 16* knots

Full load displacement 3500 tons

The above particulars are taken from the " Journal of the American Society of Naval Engineers." We are also indebted to the same valuable publication for the following interesting details of weights which are taken from the United States Naval Department's design:

Tons.

Guns, mounts, shields, &c, about ... 98
Ammunition, ordnance, stores, and out-
fit, about 165

Machinery complete, about 406

Engineers' stores, about 22

Frosh water for steaming purposes ... 40

Total coal 700

Boats and outfits 13

Masts and spars 14

Electric plant and electric outfit 29

Equipment, including anchors, chains,

rigging, &c 72

Officers, crew, and outfit 37

Miscellaneous and provisions, and cloth-
ing stores 92

[identity profile] vova-modelist.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 07:57 am (UTC)(link)
As previously stated, the tenders, or bids, for tnese six cruisers have been lately received, and it will be interesting to consider them in connection with the proposals put forward by the United States Government, more especially as the procedure followed in America differs somewhat from our own. The Naval Appropriation Bill providing for these ships was that which dealt with the provision of vessels for the United States Navy up to the end of the present fiscal year, which terminates on June 30 next. There were authorised to be constructed by contract, three seagoing coast-line battleships, three armoured cruisers, and these six protected cruisers. The general particulars of the ships were laid down in the Bill, and they are each to cost, exclusive of armament, not more than 1,140,800 dols. The Secretary of the Navy was directed to award the contract to " the lowest responsible bidder, having in view the best results and the most expeditious delivery." Not more than two of the seagoing battleships, and not more than two of the protected cruisers, were to be built in one yard or by one contracting party. It was further provided "that one and not more than one of the seagoing battleships, and one and not more than one of the armoured cruisers shall be built on or near the coast of the Pacific Ocean." The President was, however, allowed to exercise his discretion in regard to the latter provision if it was found that the vessels could not be built on the Pacific side at a cost not exceeding 4 per cent, above the lowest accepted bid for the other ships.

There is a good deal that iB interesting in the provisions of this Bill, especially when considered in conjunction with the armour-plate questions in which the United States Congress has recently thought fit to

* See Engineering, vol. lxviii., page 819 and page 50 ante.

interfere with not very fortunate results. No doubt a wise discretion is exercised in fostering shipbuilding enterprise on both ocean-coast lines of the country, as thereby the naval strength of the nation is increased, although a cynically inclined American citizen might be apt to attribute the procedure to the influence of Pacific coast votes. But in any case it would be more satisfactory, we should think, to have these matters left to the Secretary of the United States Navy and his professional advisers; as, in this country, they would be left to the First Lord of the Admiralty. Unfortunately these wider questions of national policy are the kind of things our First Lords never seem to consider; because, it may be presumed, they are subordinate to the Treasury—which never recognises anything more Imperial than tbe lowest tender— and also because they are afraid of questions in the House. The "awards " for the six cruisers were made on November 27 last, as follows:

Galveston, Wm. R. Trigg and Co., 24 months,

1,027,000 dols. Chattanooga, Lewis Nixon, 30 months, 1,039,966

dols.

Cleveland, Bath Iron Works, 30 months, 1,041,650 dols.

Tacoma, Union Iron Works, 27 months, 1,041,900 dols.

Des Moines, Fore River Engineering Company,

30 months, 1,065,000 dols. Denver, Neafie, and Levy, S. and E. B. Company,

30 months, 1,080,000 dols.

These contracts are for the department's designs with a speed of 164 knots. There was offered by one firm a lower price than any of those named, namely, 954,500 dols., but their tender was Dot accepted. There were also three bids somewhat higher. The closeness of some of the tenders is quite a coincidence, and indicates how very well the estimating department is managed in some of the works.

[identity profile] vova-modelist.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 07:57 am (UTC)(link)

Contractors were invited to submit tenders on modified designs at higher speeds, but the American Board of Construction decided to recommend acceptance only of the department plans. It will, however, bo interesting to give some of the tenders made by contractors on their own plans. The firm who gave the lowest price, not accepted, for the department design, made a bid of 1,059,500 dols. for a 17£-knot ship, or only 105,000 dols. for the extra knot. For an 18-knot ship with Thornycroft boilers, Messrs. W. R. Trigg and Co., bid 1,041,000 dols., or only 14,000 dols. for th9 extra speed, say 2800/. for a knot and a half. That appears surprisingly cheap, but the Fore River Engine Company were even more liberal, and offered the knot and a half for nothing, being willing to take 1,065,000 dols., whether the vessel steamed 16fc or 18 knots. It must be remembered, however, that the latter speed was to ba obtained on their own design, a circumstance that makes a good deal of difference when dealing with Governments. For an 18J-knot ship the Fore River Company asked 1,100,000/.; and for a 19-knot ship with Thornycroft boilers, Messrs. W. R. Trigg and Co. asked 1,079,000 dols., or only 52,000 dols. over their 16J knot price. Most of the firms offered lower prices if awarded two ships.

It would seem from these figures—for we may presume that the contractors did not offer unserviceable or absurd designs—that the United States authorities do not set an inordinately high value on speed; as our own Daval authorities have been accused of doing. Admiral Hichborn, who corresponds to our Sir William White, being head of the United States Construction Department, has expressed his disapprobation of "show vessels,"and "fancy results." Probably his department look on excessive speed as one of the "fancy," or "showy " attributes. The value to be attached to such qualities, however, is a matter for seagoing naval officers, who will fight the ships, to decide. It is easy to understand how a naval constructor may go in a direction quite contrary to that of Admiral Hichborn, and be carried a little too far in his estimate of the value of speed, for in times of peace it is often the only quality—putting aside, of course, price—by which the general public judge of the success of a warship. Nevertheless, experience has shown that speed has a high fighting value in Bteamship actions.

What boilers are actually to be put in the different shipB by various builders, we are not aware. They are, however, to be of the water-tube type.

[identity profile] l-69-l.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 08:05 am (UTC)(link)
О, премного благодарю!

[identity profile] sergiovillaggio.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 04:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Эх, теперь бы все это перетолмачить на язык родных осин и опубликовать у нас в "Морской кампании"...

[identity profile] vova-modelist.livejournal.com 2015-03-20 05:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Совершенно не против если кто-то возьмет эти материалы и напишет :).